Take a look at the use of the forearm in a defensive counter as used in the SPEAR system. It has strong (in my eyes) similarities to the opening move of Goju-ryu’s Kururunfa or perhaps Shorin-ryu’s Kusanku.
I see where you’re coming from with the link to kururunfa. Although, it was the opening movement/technique of shisochin that jumped into my head when I watched the video. I was reminded of seiyunchin too…just prior to the first empi being used.
Interesting footage all the same, and just goes to show there is little new in terms of fighting tactics, be they deemed “traditional” or not.
Thanks for the comment. For me, Kururunfa immediately jumped to mind. But your quite right, you can also see seiunchin. It just goes to show you what the teachers of old taught is still relevant. There’s nothing new under the sun as they say.
Thanks for the comment Todd. Yes, beauty is in the eye of the Goju-ryu beholder Seriously, yes I can also see it as an extension of sanchin, but I’m more inclined to see it as an extension of kururunfa. Mostly because the forearm and palm are turned somewhat outward.
As I understand karate, what we’re looking at (talking about) here is a principle/strategy that is recognizible from a number of kata. But then, again as I understand things, kata are about priciples and fighting strategies, not specific/individual techniques.
Looking at the video, it is possible to “spot” ideas from several kata, and as you say Mario, beauty (the response generated from our understanding of what we study), is in the eye of the beholder.
I hadn’t thought of kakie Todd, but now you come to mention it….
Thanks Mario, I’m hoping it will be as well received as the last book. Of course, Shin Gi Tai couldn’t have been written, not by me at any rate, without some of the groundbreaking work/research done by people like yourself and others. A fact I am very happy to acknowledge in the book.
I would probably take the middle ground (^_-). Kata teach specific mechanical techniques that can be applied across multiple situations. As for example kuri uke in seiunchin and Kururunfa. It contrasts with classical jujutsu where typically attack x is met with defense y. IMHO the Okinawa kata model is more efficient in the long run than the jujutsu model as you have fewer tools doing more work.
Yep…I agree…the middle ground is often the best bet.
Knowing nothing of jujitsu, I’m unable to comment on the specifics of the “attack x is met with defense y” approach to self-protection.
Although, any fighting system that relys on your “memeory” of what to do next, over an instinctive “feeling” for what is possible, sounds a little scary to me…..my memory is so bad I’ve even been known to forget to finish my……………
Just as a note, the model of classical jujutsu IME looks like “attack x is met with defense y,” but it’s a bit more complicated than that. A lot of the attack variables are virtually identical, while the outcome response defense may be quite different depending on the point in the syllabus. It’s more about teaching the principles of how to respond defensively than the response itself.
It’s really not that much different from teaching something like Sandan-uke for beginners, using it to teach timing, distance, and stepping rather than actual defensive responses for use in live situations. The upper, middle, lower blocks may apply to some real situations, but not in the way you practice them in that drill.
Thanks for the explanation of classical JJ. It seems that the method you described is to convey basic principles in a fixed context and range of techniques. So would it be fair to say that it is somewhat similar to karate’s yakusoku kumite or oyo bunkai? The problem still remains though that JJ never moves beyond this level.
With regard to JJ never moving beyond the fixed level, I would agree, though much the same could be said for much of Karate.
I think it comes down to the 守ー破ー理 you mentioned elsewhere – while there is a risk of ”我流” in breaking too soon, there seems to be an even greater risk IME of getting stuck in the 守 phase by never breaking at all – just look at what most of the large organizations have become.
Won’t get any argument from me. Most classical Budo is predominantly in preservation mode 守. And while I can respect this from a cultural and societal level, it can be dangerous on a functional level.
Hi Mario,
I see where you’re coming from with the link to kururunfa. Although, it was the opening movement/technique of shisochin that jumped into my head when I watched the video. I was reminded of seiyunchin too…just prior to the first empi being used.
Interesting footage all the same, and just goes to show there is little new in terms of fighting tactics, be they deemed “traditional” or not.
Thanks for the comment. For me, Kururunfa immediately jumped to mind. But your quite right, you can also see seiunchin. It just goes to show you what the teachers of old taught is still relevant. There’s nothing new under the sun as they say.
Regards
I see the forearm defensive counter as more of an extension of sanchin/kakie principles, which can also be seen in Shisochin, as Mike mentioned.
Thanks for the comment Todd. Yes, beauty is in the eye of the Goju-ryu beholder
Seriously, yes I can also see it as an extension of sanchin, but I’m more inclined to see it as an extension of kururunfa. Mostly because the forearm and palm are turned somewhat outward.
Cheers,
As I understand karate, what we’re looking at (talking about) here is a principle/strategy that is recognizible from a number of kata. But then, again as I understand things, kata are about priciples and fighting strategies, not specific/individual techniques.
Looking at the video, it is possible to “spot” ideas from several kata, and as you say Mario, beauty (the response generated from our understanding of what we study), is in the eye of the beholder.
I hadn’t thought of kakie Todd, but now you come to mention it….
Congratulations on the upcoming book Shin Gi Tai. Look forward to reading it.
Thanks Mario, I’m hoping it will be as well received as the last book. Of course, Shin Gi Tai couldn’t have been written, not by me at any rate, without some of the groundbreaking work/research done by people like yourself and others. A fact I am very happy to acknowledge in the book.
I would probably take the middle ground (^_-). Kata teach specific mechanical techniques that can be applied across multiple situations. As for example kuri uke in seiunchin and Kururunfa. It contrasts with classical jujutsu where typically attack x is met with defense y. IMHO the Okinawa kata model is more efficient in the long run than the jujutsu model as you have fewer tools doing more work.
Yep…I agree…the middle ground is often the best bet.
Knowing nothing of jujitsu, I’m unable to comment on the specifics of the “attack x is met with defense y” approach to self-protection.
Although, any fighting system that relys on your “memeory” of what to do next, over an instinctive “feeling” for what is possible, sounds a little scary to me…..my memory is so bad I’ve even been known to forget to finish my……………
Just as a note, the model of classical jujutsu IME looks like “attack x is met with defense y,” but it’s a bit more complicated than that. A lot of the attack variables are virtually identical, while the outcome response defense may be quite different depending on the point in the syllabus. It’s more about teaching the principles of how to respond defensively than the response itself.
It’s really not that much different from teaching something like Sandan-uke for beginners, using it to teach timing, distance, and stepping rather than actual defensive responses for use in live situations. The upper, middle, lower blocks may apply to some real situations, but not in the way you practice them in that drill.
Quintさん:
Thanks for the explanation of classical JJ. It seems that the method you described is to convey basic principles in a fixed context and range of techniques. So would it be fair to say that it is somewhat similar to karate’s yakusoku kumite or oyo bunkai? The problem still remains though that JJ never moves beyond this level.
That sounds accurate enough to me.
With regard to JJ never moving beyond the fixed level, I would agree, though much the same could be said for much of Karate.
I think it comes down to the 守ー破ー理 you mentioned elsewhere – while there is a risk of ”我流” in breaking too soon, there seems to be an even greater risk IME of getting stuck in the 守 phase by never breaking at all – just look at what most of the large organizations have become.
Quintさん:
Won’t get any argument from me. Most classical Budo is predominantly in preservation mode 守. And while I can respect this from a cultural and societal level, it can be dangerous on a functional level.